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  1. #1

    Considering fully dropping all DS support to focus on new Poser features...

    As the subject says, Rebekah and I are seriously weighing the options of simply dropping Daz Studio support to really focus on Poser. As I take account of the features in 2012, I find that, from a developer's perspective, the only thing introduced there that I can't make backward compatible all the way to 8 is weight mapping and if we still used spherical falloffs whenever possible, most things can go all the way back to 7.2. That covers a lot of versions all using features that Daz Studio just refuses to embrace, in particular compatibility with dependent parameters.

    The majority of the art in this, for me, is in building the best figures possible. That said, I'm finding myself becoming more and more irritated by how throttling it is to develop with essentially some very outdated standards in mind. I don't like the way the Daz vs. Poser schism has reached a point where I feel that I have to decide between either developing for old standards, doing double development to take advantage of the best both offer, or just picking one. So far, we've kept things backward compatible to a degree that I find cumbersome artistically. If we move past that, then we have to make the choice between packages because it's just not economically sensible for us to do double development for two diverging platforms.

    So, I'm posting this to discuss the matter with the good folks on this forum and hopefully get some feedback that might help us decide what the best route is. Frankly, I WANT to just embrace 2012/P9 because of the amazing thing I know I can build for them, and I really feel that doing that would showcase our work better than any other option. It's just a matter of really weighing out the ups and downs of the whole thing and finding what will be the best decision for us.

    I really hope to see some folks join in this discussion as I am sure it is relevant not just to us, but many other content artists as well. Thanks! -Les

  2. #2
    I'm a DAZ user and I really am a fan of your products. Please don't leave us out.

    Hank.

  3. #3
    Les,

    You have to do what is right for you and Sixus1 Media. Most of all, you have to take the route that you think you are most comfortable with and focus on what is going to be most profitable for you in the long run. If it means utilizing technology that is unavailable or unusable in DAZ Studio, then so be it. There is no sense in killing yourself over backwards compatibility or supporting two platforms if you can't get a decent return on your labor.

    I own both Poser Pro 2012 and DAZ Studio 4 Pro, so I wouldn't necessarily be effected either way. However, I almost never use Poser anymore and only keep a current version for product development and testing. Otherwise, I'm 99.9% DAZ Studio 4.

    Thanks for taking the time to ask for our feedback. I'm certain you'll make the right decision.


    Cheers!
    Regards,

    Nagus
    DAZ Studio Forum Moderator

  4. #4
    DS4 is my importer/converter for Cinema 4D
    ______
    regards
    prixat

  5. #5
    Thanks for the replies so far. This is, at least for the moment, a very open discussion for me. Granted, I've been laboring over this decision for a while now, but I think it's time to really take it to the public forums more and have a real look at things. I know that there are some fans of our stuff out there who are pretty much exclusive to Daz which really is the primary reason there's any hesitation on my part about going strictly Poser. If there were a way to get those folks to adopt Poser to a greater degree (or any degree for that matter), I would love to see that happen as there are just so many different areas where I see Poser (especially with 9/2012) as being a far more mature app than Daz Studio. However, I understand a lot of those folks who are Daz users came to this via Daz and so that's really what they've kind of learned on. That gives it a real comfort zone for them which I think is a lot of what prevents people from adopting both apps, from either direction. The really sad part, though, is that there is definitely a point coming where the schism between the two will be so great that compatibility won't be remotely possible outside of some basic import functions, and possibly whatever FBX support either might embrace, but that's a whole other thing to think about. So.... I hope to hear from more folks on this, and don't be shy with your opinions on the subject. Everyone who buys something from me has, in effect, contributed to my ability to put food on the table for my family. It's just that simple. So, with that in mind, every one of you have an opinion that is important to me on a personal level, and something that I feel I need to weigh respectfully as we look at the way the playing field in this line of work continues to change. -Les

  6. #6
    I personally don't use DS I love my poser but having said that I know there are a lot of people who use it due to it having been free for so long.

    I have not been over at Daz too much since what I feel they are trying to make us choose DS over Poser with them coming out with great stuff DS /Genisis only and nothing much for Poser. So I am sure there will be a lot of people upset if you do drop DS suport but then again I agree you have to do what you feel you have to. There are a lot of DS users who know how to get around problems and make it work in DS
    SndCastie

    Imagination can create wonderful things

  7. #7
    I think its great of you to bring this so thoughtfully and openly to the forums, good on you for that. I think not just yourself but many content creators have been held back increasingly by the 'need' or perceived need for backwards compatibility in the marketplace. In some ways I think the schism between DS and poser is something of a good thing, in that, while it may force some tough decisions, it will also free artists to get the most out of their applications.

    I'll preface my opinion of which way you should go by noting that I am thoroughly biased. I jumped on poser pro before release and have been loving my 3d work more since September than ever before.
    No surprise I think you'd be making an excellent choice to go poser only. You can release products that take advantage of posers most advanced options and still include options to keep them open as you said back to poser 7.2, or even earlier if you wish. You also mentioned that you feel poser could showcase your work better and I think that is bang on. Poser use comes down to renders. And the only renders I have seen from DS that come close to what poser can do natively are done using luxrender via the reality plugin. Thats my 2 bits on poser.

    Above all I think you should make the decision that you feel most at ease with as an artist and you feel is the right financial choice for you and your family.

    BTW I love your work!, I often wish my renders had a greater need. I often have to make purchasing decisions based more on what I will use most vs what is clearly awesomer .. talk about tough decisions!

  8. #8
    I am sad to hear that Les, but I can understand that you have to choose.

    As you know, I love your stuff and the day I can't use it in DS will be a bad day. If you feel you have to take a decision and I know that you think that Poser is the way to go, go ahead man, I'll try anyway to use it in DS! ^_^

    There are more things I would like to say, especially concerning some posts here, but that would be OT.

    Anyway, do as you feel and I will try to make it work in DS.
    Peter


  9. #9
    If it's compatible with P7 it will be compatible with DS, too, if you use ERC instead of the dependant parameters.
    Personally, I prefer ERC over DPs. But you're creating original figures, not conforming clothes so your case might be different.
    - I am, therefore I eat -

    My products at RDNA

  10. #10
    It's a very difficult time for vendors, no question. I'm sure the decision for you isn't an easy one. I was at a similar crossroads trying to develop a Daz version of my linear-workflow, conservation-of-energy Poser shaders, which were trivial to generate in Poser using matmatic (essentially, Python). Whilst trying to hand-cobble these in Shader Mixer, the programme would vaporise. It was very disheartening to tell my would-be DS customers that I wasn't able to produce these for them.

    The picture is of course quite different for me: I'm not pros like you are and certainly haven't the positive experiences you do with Daz Studio. So, the decision must be infinitely more difficult for you.
    Nothing is as uncommon as common sense... when all's been said and done, more's been said than done.

  11. #11
    One of the biggest elements in Poser that really makes me want to go exclusive to it is just the ease and precision of linking any parameter on a figure to other parameters via the dependency editor in 2012. I've been a Mayaholic since 1999. Two of my favorite aspects of setting up characters inside Maya are creating expressions and "set driven keys" to drive different aspects of the character. The dependent parameters in Poser share so much in common with both of those systems from Maya that not using them for all manner of bells and whistles sometimes has me feeling like I've got a Ferrari in the garage but I still have to drive the beat up Toyota. Part of the decision with this stuff, though, is also in considering what people use the sofware for. Probably 99.9% of it's use is still images which explains, at least to me, a LOT about why it's taken so long to get some of those kind of features into the app. When doing still images it's just a given that the user can and probably will tweak a lot of little things by hand, but when animating, the more things are tied to each other in a logical, functional way, the more consistent the animated output will be. I've been using Poser to animate for as long as Poser has been available, but I've just recently sort of realized the extent to which hardly anyone else seems to use it that way, so maybe part of what I need to be thinking over is how "application specific" my thinking on some things might need to become. Just food for thought I guess...

    Oh, and thanks for the conversation on this, folks. The input really does help. -Les

  12. #12
    The worst part about making a decision like that is... well... making it.

    Something tells me that you will not be the only vendor making this decision.

    When you get to an intersection:
    You can go strait, turn left or right, but you can't go all 3 ways at once.
    It is your path, and it is your choice.

    What ever path you take will have customers on it as well.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by sixus1 View Post
    One of the biggest elements in Poser that really makes me want to go exclusive to it is just the ease and precision of linking any parameter on a figure to other parameters via the dependency editor in 2012. I've been a Mayaholic since 1999. Two of my favorite aspects of setting up characters inside Maya are creating expressions and "set driven keys" to drive different aspects of the character. The dependent parameters in Poser share so much in common with both of those systems from Maya that not using them for all manner of bells and whistles sometimes has me feeling like I've got a Ferrari in the garage but I still have to drive the beat up Toyota. Part of the decision with this stuff, though, is also in considering what people use the sofware for. Probably 99.9% of it's use is still images which explains, at least to me, a LOT about why it's taken so long to get some of those kind of features into the app. When doing still images it's just a given that the user can and probably will tweak a lot of little things by hand, but when animating, the more things are tied to each other in a logical, functional way, the more consistent the animated output will be. I've been using Poser to animate for as long as Poser has been available, but I've just recently sort of realized the extent to which hardly anyone else seems to use it that way, so maybe part of what I need to be thinking over is how "application specific" my thinking on some things might need to become. Just food for thought I guess...

    Oh, and thanks for the conversation on this, folks. The input really does help. -Les
    I'm in exactly that spectrum. I use Poser to create shaders using Python (matmatic). This alone make Poser a key tool and since RSL isn't anywhere as easy to learn as Python, makes DS a no-go for my purposes.
    I create dynamic cloth in Blender to sim in Poser. Again, I'm not about to invest in a technology that limits me to one mechanism for simming (Optitex) - don't even know, does it do quads at all? - and I like the price. This is something I can do without incurring extra expense. So again, a no-go for DS. Yes, I'm fairly weird in how I use Poser, perhaps - I only do stills even though I sim stuff - but I know I can use the technology without having any limitations that can only be overcome with buying add-ons.
    Nothing is as uncommon as common sense... when all's been said and done, more's been said than done.

  14. #14
    I would recommend you e-mail everyone who has purchased one of your products in the past year and ask them to reply with the name and version of programme they use - or setup a poll and ask your customers to participate - and only your past customers. That way you can at least quantify the number of Daz users that purchase your products and whether they are a drop in the bucket or a significant percentage. Because if you're looking at ending an income stream at least you should know the size of that income stream - if they're a siginficant percentage of your customers then the financial consideration might have to outweigh the practical consideration.

  15. #15
    Are you considering Poser only because of rigging or because of materials? If it's the former, well, understandable. If it's the latter, then well, DS users can be taught how to make their own DS mats, no? Or you could always request someone do them for you.

    Me personally? Current DS user saving the pennies to become an exclusive Poser user. Believe me, there are many of us.

    Ultimately, it's your choice, and we will respect your decision completely,

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by angelusprime View Post
    Are you considering Poser only because of rigging or because of materials? If it's the former, well, understandable. If it's the latter, then well, DS users can be taught how to make their own DS mats, no? Or you could always request someone do them for you.

    Me personally? Current DS user saving the pennies to become an exclusive Poser user. Believe me, there are many of us.

    Ultimately, it's your choice, and we will respect your decision completely,
    There are a number of approaches to getting into Poser. If I were saving up for Poser (and getting impatient, as I do ) I'd be going here to get PP2010, a rock-solid version of Poser Pro, for $64.95. Then, when SM does their upgrade specials, jump on them.
    Nothing is as uncommon as common sense... when all's been said and done, more's been said than done.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by sixus1 View Post
    Frankly, I WANT to just embrace 2012/P9 because of the amazing thing I know I can build for them, and I really feel that doing that would showcase our work better than any other option. It's just a matter of really weighing out the ups and downs of the whole thing and finding what will be the best decision for us.

    I really hope to see some folks join in this discussion as I am sure it is relevant not just to us, but many other content artists as well. Thanks! -Les

    That to me says what direction you'd like to move Personally myself as a vendor and in my freebies at sharecg I have stopped trying to support ds some of my stuff still will work with it but I don't offer support its just to time consuming and frustrating trying to, and since my preference is poser thats what I went with . Love your stuff and very curious as what you can come up with with posers new capabilities .Best of luck this isn't an easy decision but one it seems more of us are making.
    http://forum.runtimedna.com/signaturepics/sigpic72498_1.gif

  18. #18
    You are in the same position of programmers who try to provide multi-platform applications, with the added problem that you have nothing like toolkits like Qt or environments like Java 2 or the C#/Mono pair.

    Single platform development can use all the features of the selected platform, multi-platoform can use only the common subset (unless you go the two-parallel releases approach, which is a total nightmare). Doing two similar things at the same time does cost more than just twice because during the debug phase you have to keep things aligned and/or check that the fixes on one platform do not become bugs on the other so it is a ghastly tug of war (done it once, I was forced to do so, still have shivers after almost 20 years).

    Add to the mix that, whatever you will do, you won't please everybody.

    The cold, beans-counter answer is to compare the sales on the different platforms and do some what if scenarios: 1-only platform A, 2-only platform B, 3-common subset of A and B, 4-two parallel releases for A and B. Plug in numbers and then see the result. Whatever you will do, expect a sour taste.

    Bye.

  19. #19
    Wow, clear-sighted answer, Alex. You do know your stuff!
    Nothing is as uncommon as common sense... when all's been said and done, more's been said than done.

  20. #20
    I'm fairly new to all this. I use PP2012 purely for animations, I have no interest in still images at all. I looked at DS, but discarded that option for the same reasons as others have listed above and elsewhere, in short, it just doesn't cut it for my purposes.

    I would welcome more content that uses more modern features of Poser. That being said, I seldom use SSS or IDL because of the huge hit on render times.

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